jervybingly

I think the elite will manage the depopulation and I think the plans and tech are ready to go at any time they decide.

faun

Technology amplifies rifts between haves and the domimant majority of everyone else. Eventually these divides will lead to the long, ugly, and painful collapse of civilization until populations of have nots are low enough not to threaten the wealthy who will continue fighting amongst themselves for any remaining scraps of money or security as natural resource shortages increase. Overall, the only way I see out of this planet's current dilemma is a change in values which probably won't come easy since many people, myself imcluded, are usually pretty stubborn anyways.

k_digi

Incorrect, on a number of levels:

The context of "automation" is put into the current framework, this is your error in thinking.

  • automation will allow for decentralized self sufficiency.

  • once the first automated micro "farm" starts production, then it will provide excess.

  • then so on and so forth, the only simple requirements are freedom of certain keys, I.e enrgy etc.

  • automation won't occur without these.

  • the current framework wont fit an automation system.

mojo4567

okay i will give you the point that as of now, certain barriers like energy, space, and cost will deter automation, you are right on that, our current world will not support the type of automation i am talking of. The future however, is anyones guess. However

  1. Decentralized self sufficiency, yes, but the whole point of capitalism is that more people lose so that some can win (even if the ratio is 49.99 to 50.01), which means that in some shape or form there will be costs associated with "self sufficiency" (i know seems like an oxymoron, but its not) that will be an expense, even if that expense is less than a penny.

  2. Cost of food does not impact birth rates noticeably, the biggest indicators are expenses (cost of living) and Income (unemployment)

  3. therefore, in a capitalist society with expenses and income, it does not matter how self sufficient the citizens are, there will still be a natural decline in population

Now as a redditor in the comments below stated, all of this is true only if we continue with the current system. once communism or socialism takes over, then these statements are no longer true, and everything you said above is true.

This argument was all based on what i synthesized from the excerpts you gave me however. If you ment something entirely diffrent then what i took away please say so :)

EDIT: Also, i do agree though that in some form decentralization is the only way to go from here. I am an anarcho socialist though, so that is not a dirty word :)

k_digi

Yeah well, "social system" will pretty much have less meaning in the future as well.

we will function under "configuration systems"

its' pretty simple look at it like "VOAT" there is more freedom here than "Reddit" more decentralization of info what do you call "VOAT" ?

well take that basic principal and expand it into a general configuration system, "socialism" doesn't really work like that, there will really be no "central distibution" in decentralization there might be a "network" and some "organization" but that's about it.

mojo4567

Yes, and i get that. in the future it very may well be near impossible to tell the upper class, from the lower class. That still wont negate that fact that the "majority" of people will be giving more than the receive, however that might look like, and that the minority will be receiving more than they give, however THAT might look like. I think part of our disconnect is that you are talking forms of social hierarchy mainly, decentralized social classes that wont resemble the pyramid we have had forever, and i am talking economic systems. Now, for decentralized economics there are plenty of great options, parecon being my favorite, that would work wonders. however, decentralized economics still fall prey to the same glut of expenses vs. income, and in a society where automation exists, the quality and output of your work will be the only thing that matters. We will not have time to worry about the effort of work, becuase things will move ahead with or without you, and only those who can keep up will get the job, becuase even in a decentralized society job specification will be needed, and especially in a decentralized society with automation we will have a case by case basis for everything where renumeration for effort will impede production rather than fairly equate it. So even if someone gets a job, and is rewarded with effort instead of output, they will only have been chosen becuase they are the best possible canidate for output, no matter if they are rewarded for effort.

So that is why decentralized economics will not help this problem. It will only disguise the pyramid in a new fashion, with employment shifting towards a more conservative hiring scheme, hiring only the minority for a position, becuase if you pay everyone based on effort that means that <50% are payed more than they are worth and >50% are payed less than they are worth. So, why would you hire the person who is only 49% "good" at this job to do it, when you will have to pay him as if he is 50% good at it. This is even worse than what we have now, becuase this means that instead of hiring someone based on if they produce profit for the company (it does not take alot of work or thinking to make mcdonalds 10$ an hour, giving them a $1 profit for you), they will only hire you if you are better than 50% of the people out there at something. All of this will cause rising unemployment, seeing as the majority of people will be unfit for jobs, and even in a decentralized world the pyramid will still exist due to this, causing the afformentioned problem, of declining population.

k_digi

https://voat.co/v/Contact/comments/153828#submissionTop

see this - contrib if you like - it is not a joke.

mojo4567

Interesting read. The implications of that are enormous, to say the least if they sign the deal

k_digi

It's not even close to finished - will outline the Prime mandate which will be :

all the things i mentioned, decentralized abundance domestic anti-grav and communication Sats to network everything (AG obviously)

k_digi

Ok just read the rest yeah, i guess it is hard to think in these terms, but you are thinking about "money" i am a decentralized economist, so i know everything about "money".

"money" is just a convenient token for "human energy and extended energy" in the system we have now "money" is issued exclusively as debt.

take the debt away and the system does not function. (as you can see)

"money" decentralized without debt is just (again) a token for "human" (here now) energy its just a token for exchange of things and services.

it can exist just fine in a decentralized environment. but it won't be like how it is now.

mojo4567

About jobs :

I fully agree with you, in a fully automated society there will be no such thing as a job, no one will have to get a job, ect. and population will rebound and grow. However, this writeup is talking about what will happen leading up to the creation of total automation, ai and the whole nine yards. Until that happens there will be a demand for human labor, in one form or another, and there will be a demand for reconciliation for this labor. at a certain point, yes we will be fully automized, and the few things that are not automated yet, but will be, will be voluntary for one reason or another.

Now, the Money:

It doesnt matter whether money is issued like debt in this discussion, and of course money will still "work" in a decentralized society, It is treated, like you have stated, as an extension of human energy. Put in x, get y amount of "money". It doesnt matter whether money is centralized (USD, Yen, ect.) or Decentralized (bartering) in the future, it will still stand that A. Someone will own capital B. someone will "purchase" the labors of that "capital" and C. There will always be a minority that is better/more deserving to make profit off of that capital. So, no matter how money "works" in the future, everything i said in my last statement is still valid.

k_digi

Nope you are incorrect re money.

It does matter if it is centralized or issued as debt , because all viable "money" competes in decentralized information.

So those "money's" just wouldn't be used, thier "confidence" would be low.

I agree in part with what you are saying re transition, however I think we will get there much more smoothly than some predictions.

k_digi

ok - wait, just stop for one second...

i'm going to read what you wrote , however you have a pretty big flaw in everything you wrote:

"get a job"

can you define this?

what is a "job" if there is automation and decentralized abundance remind me again why people are "working at a job"

nope what they will be doing is "contributing to society" it would be pretty much voluntary and would work a lot better than how it does now.

you see there are only a tiny few evolutions that humans need to kick this solution off, and as the process is decentralized it could start tomorrow, it could have already started you wouldn't know.

jervybingly

The meek shall inherit the earth, if that's all right with you.

CarlosShyamalan

If in the future every work will be automated, and the burgoise wont distribute the produced goods for free, then there will necessary be a revolution. In this case socialism will solve all of the problems by taking away the means of production and giving them to the control of an AI that designs the mathematically perfect distribution of food and shelter to those who need it.

In the past, when the industrial revolution came, in every country there were either reforms or open rebellions and revolutions, that severly crippled the factory owners (seriously we think its bad today? It was way worse in the european monarchies without any securities or benefits whatsoever).

mojo4567

Yes, i fully agree. a very astute point. This does merely label what would happen if we continued at current trajectory, however i think as long as it will benefit the rich to keep the current system going, to decrese population, then it will stay. revolutions merely change who is on top (most times).

Mr_Sir

I don't have high hopes for this, but to prevent this we need to move away from a monetary system. No more money! What needs to be done, is move a resource base economy. Basically, what the Zeitgeist film serious advocates

k_digi

Zeitgeist is close, however the path is decentralized systems not some "super computer"

Mr_Sir

Fair enough. Zeitgeist is not perfect, nor is any system. Consider this, with the degree in which technology affects our everyday lives (as we have this conversation over the Internet)and international commerce, how could we ever have a true decentralized system? More so, one that can't be so easily corrupted with the use of power through monetary power. I agree a super computer raises eyes brows, but the ideology behind the idea seems more appealing to me.

k_digi

So so easy.

Just a few little innovations, in fact they have already been invented.

Simple little "elon musk" style sats for decentralized backbone then wireless mesh in-between

That sets the network, then pass energy along a similar type network, aim for self sufficient markets.

We will have this soon trust me ( famous last words lol )

no1113

"Shall"? How about "always had".

mojo4567

yup ever since agriculture :/ anyways it was just a play on "the meek shall inherit the earth"

no1113

ever since agriculture

Heck. Ever since our creation - whenever (however) that was.

But I see what you meant.