tanukihat

I'm sure naturalnews.com is an unbiased and highly scientific source. Did they get their White House press pass yet, or is that still in the works?

Edit: anonymous downvoats with no rebuttal tells me everything I need to know :)

qwop

You're getting anonymous downvotes because you're not making any sense.

What has a White House press pass got to do with scientific credibility?
CNN has a White House press pass. Is that the level of "credibility" we're shooting for now?

Ans yes, Natualnews IS actually fairly biased. Biased in favor of science. The founder, Mike Adams, runs an ISO certified heavy metal and chemical analysis lab. He does more science daily than the average pharmaceutical industry shill does in a lifetime. The science is very clear that many of the adjuvants in vaccines are harmful. And not only that, the evidence from parents, pediatricians and doctors who dare to speak out about vaccine damage, become undeniable after just a little research.

People accuse those that are cautious about vaccines of being anti-science, when in fact those people who are vocal about the dangers of vaccine have done more science research, read more papers, looked at more statistics, than most normal people do in their lifetime.

So next time if you want upvotes and more replies to your comments, perhaps try and write something interesting and thoughtful, instead of just throwing mud and writing confusing statements.

Awaiting your anonymous downvote...

tanukihat

I'm gonna let you know right now, I'm not reading your paragraphs because I don't respect you, but I'm sure they explain why science and vaccines are evil and Jesus will protect kids from measles.

Edit: also go look up what "anonymous" means.

qwop

Yes. Sticking your head in the sand is a perfectly valid strategy. Good for you.

AverageAmerica

How many children were harmed by small pox?

B3bomber

Depends if you defined killed as harmed or not. Honestly though, USA vaccines are "new" versions replacing old ones known to work. We have not had an actual study testing the new ones to see if they work, let alone are safe.

Phen

When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

-- VAERS website

Data acquired from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) reveals that children across the U.S. are being hospitalized and treated for vaccine injuries at alarming rates.

-- Sham journalism

qwop

That makes everything even more worrying. So you're saying that the vaccine industry does not even follow up on these case reports? To me that lends even less credibility to the whole pharmaceutical vaccine industry.

Compare this to the airline industry, where each report of a malfunction or event, is always carefully investigated by the FAA. Everything is always logged and reported, and all adverse events have to be followed up and investigated.

What sort of negligent industry is the vaccine industry, where we have a database of reports, and there are no investigations, no committees and no oversight legislation or government mandated independent scientific boards that look into these events?

And btw., did you know most doctors do not even know what a vaccine adverse event looks like. Therefore, if anything, the data collected in VAERS is a highly underreported sampling of the total number of events.

Makes me not want to touch a vaccine with a ten foot pole, and any sane person who looks at this whole "industry", armed with this disturbing information, should react the same.

Phen

Hm? With VAERS, any sort of relationship with a vaccine, even if it's only a relationship in time, even if it's merely suspected or feared, is documented. It doesn't mean it's caused, it's just correlation data: the first kind of data available, and the kind of data needed for larger studies to discover wider unknown patterns.

If a plane has a malfunction, a cause-and-effect can often be established, because mechanical malfunctions are so much simpler than biological malfunctions. The differences in levels of complexity are so great that they're really not even comparable. But we don't manufacture humans, and defects can be caused be hosts of subtle factors. Rarely are symptoms a simple cause-and-effect.

If you're looking for an investigative task force to look into every single possible negative relationship, it's simply impossible. That goes for all medicine, allergies, foods, etc. What can be done, however, is thorough scientific testing, reasonable precautions, and exhaustive documentation. VAERS is the latter of that list.

For context, if I claimed to have felt ill after taking a homeopathic remedy, what do you think would happen? What do you think should happen?

qwop

With VAERS, any sort of relationship with a vaccine, even if it's only a relationship in time, even if it's merely suspected or feared, is documented.

This is not true. I've listened to over 100 interviews of parents, pediatricians, and a couple of doctors with vaccine injured children, and almost without fail they all say that the administering nurses or doctors never reported anything. Even with very serious adverse effects, which have resulted in disability, the parents are always told the reaction is normal.

Also for doctors it is not mandated to report to VAERS. It is voluntary. There is no punishment for not reporting. The doctor reports it, if he or she thinks there is a connection. That's like an airline pilot nor reporting a malfunction, because he determined it not to be worthy of reporting. Airline pilots are not mechanics nor aeronautical engineers, any more than your base MD's are toxicologists, immunologists, or neurologists.

Doctors are not even taught how to detect adverse events. Most doctors do not even read the inserts nor inform of the risks that are STATED on the inserts, to patients.

And, what I'm saying above comes from the mouths of doctors and pediatricians. To say that VAERS exhaustively documents everything therefore seems to be a serious exaggeration.

If a homeopathic remedy causes adverse events, I assume it is taken very seriously. The same as with any remedy and medication, adverse events should be taken seriously. However I don't think anyone has ever died, had a seizure, encephalopathy, or become disabled from homeopathy.

What I'm saying is that with vaccines adverse events are dismissed. Dismissal is the norm, not the exception.

I would have much more respect for the medical industry, if the parents of these disabled children were taken seriously. If their episodes would have been investigated thoroughly, but all these parents got were dismissals. This tells me of a fundamental problem in the safety procedures of the vaccine industry, which naturally leads to a severe lack of confidence. You cannot have this many people on the ground constantly reporting problems, and it is still being dismissed.

Imagine if some homeopathic treatment would have resulted in death. It would be headline new all over the world, and homeopathy would be banned from this planet for the rest of eternity,.

Yet with vaccines, adverse events, disabilities, and even deaths, are never talked about. Even mentioning them in a discussion can get you labeled as an "anti-vaxxer" or "anti-science".

That's all I need to hear to know that the environment and attitudes around vaccines does not foster truth finding. It fosters dismissal and ridicule. That's not science any more, that's something more akin to religion or a dogmatic belief system.

Phen

That's all I need to hear to know that the environment and attitudes around vaccines does not foster truth finding. It fosters dismissal and ridicule. That's not science any more, that's something more akin to religion or a dogmatic belief system.

Well that you and I agree on. Whenever any issue becomes politicized, hostile armies manifest to call the other side subhuman or whatever. Civility is the first casualty, and truth is often the second. The first shots on a political issue are usually fired by the "anti" side. That's why questioning vaccines is answered with kneejerk reactions. (Same with climate change, mainstream media narrative, etc.)

I would be surprised to hear anyone claim that vaccines are 100% effective and 100% safe. The barrier of acceptability for vaccines (or, really most any technology) is whether or not we're better with it or without it. One could make the dubious claim that, vaccines having done their work in past decades, the balance of safety is now on the other side. I call that dubious due recent resurgences of previously preventable diseases, often among the affluent.

Well-known classes of allergens exist for vaccines, and certain people are indeed advised by medical professionals to avoid vaccines with those allergens. Allergies are not an all or nothing thing, of course, and it's not unsurprising that a minority of the population may have adverse reactions to certain vaccines, symptoms for which may appear vague. Additionally, since vaccines are now common, and random maladies are also common, combining this with an significant increase in the breadth and sensitivity of diagnosis, it's not uncommon for people to jump to conclusions when correlating childhood vaccinations with random childhood illnesses or conditions.

I'm sure you've heard this all before.

To address your point of investigative followup, I don't see that as scheming or malicious. I think it's a practical lack of resources. Vaccines mostly work as intended for most all people. Some are better than others. Most all improve society.

qwop

Well I thank you for a thoughtful discussion. It seems you are aware of some of the problems, and potential problems. That's a good attitude to still have an open mind.

I just want to point out one important thing still, which you may not be aware of, and that is what happens to large families where half of the children are vaccinated and the other half is not.

Among the interviews I mentioned, there are a few families that have such a situation. Without exception the unvaccinated chilldren in the family have less disease, less allergies, and less autoimmune type disorders. I've yet to hear of a family that regrets not vaccinating.

In fact all of them stopped vaccinating after one of their children regressed seriously after vaccination. In some cases it took two injured kids before the parents believed it was happening. That's how "anti vaxxers" are born. People seem to think questioning vaccines just sprouts out of thin air, without any rime or reason. No, the questions are born out of real human suffering.

It only takes one case. One time with an injured child, and you turn from being a full blown pro vaccine advocate into realizing that there is something seriously wrong with this system.

But there's a lot more to all of this. Much more than we can ever hash out on a Voat commenting thread. Lack or resources is part of it yes, but it's also politics, and even sadly, there is also some corruption. Although I personally think the real fundamental problem is the unquestioning belief that we talked about...that belief brings with itself a whole cascade of downstream issues.

I have a pretty harsh view about vaccines. I believe we are even talking about outright fraud. It may not seem fraud to those who are doing it, because they think they are doing it for the common good...

Anyway..if you ever want to dig deeper, I would recommend the documentary series The Truth About Vaccines. It's not as harsh as me, and tries to look at both sides of the argument, but with really great insights. Very well made by the director Ty Bollinger (The Truth About Cancer).

Jimmycog

People not making money from vaccines have been screaming that for years.

qwop

What does that mean? Here's another one:

People making money from vaccines have been screaming about their benefits for years.

Jimmycog

Silly reply