More and more online I see character assassinations instead of productive discussions ( conspiracy )

submitted by magnora

I see this quite a bit on voat, and quite a bit on reddit.

People get in to conversations, and immediately one person begins trying to destroy the other person instead of having the goal to have a good conversation.

If you want to "win" a conversation, you can almost always convince yourself somehow that you have won after things get dirty enough. There is a famous historical quote from a Catholic Cardinal: "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

If you have a conversation that is more than 6 lines, they will find something by which they can make you look foolish. The whole conversation becomes about avoiding the missteps that lead to a person being proven a hypocrite, or a liar, or some other form of character assassination.

If two people were actually having a good conversation, they would work together to find the highest version of their mutual understanding of the world, and build off that.

In a disingenuous conversation, a person is noting your every word, waiting for you to slip up, whereupon they will make a big fuss about it and re-center the whole argument around that misstep to make you look foolish.

I really hate seeing the latter. I wish we could figure out a way to reduce it, because it seems to have become more prevalent every year for the last 2 decades. Or at the least cordon it off to some ugly corner of the internet where trolls can fight trolls, and the rest of us can converse in peace and with good intention.

Part of the problem is younger people having easier access, more than ever. Another problem is the huge gulf between mainstream culture and internet culture, including etiquette rules. Another problem is the rise of shilling networks masquerading as humans, both political and corporate. Which is unfortunately cheaper and more effective than most other types of advertising. Because we don't yet know better as a world culture. We don't know how to control bad actors because the ability for the PR agents to directly respond publicly is an entirely new type of public relations, and it can be hard to filter those who are simply emotional or opinionated, from those who are pushing an agenda or muddying the waters of discussion.

Muddying the waters of discussion seems to be the main methodology to break up information they don't want to seem reliable. People here know this. They can't delete things, and they can't fake downvotes forever, so eventually they just try to make everyone look crazy. They want people to see the thread with the most relevant and useful information and instead of taking it in, look at the top comments and go "oh, these people are insane" and hit the back button, and mentally note never to visit the subreddit ever again. That is the primary tactic of bad actors these days, it seems. It's an infection that is spreading around the internet, and what's worse is it makes everyone think that everyone else is insane! Although the reality hasn't changed, the perception of "people in this word" becomes very warped after years of exposure to this tactic, witnessed here and there in moments of apparent insanity. You think "man, people are fucking nuts" and you stop trusting people.

Just like those who watch too much TV news get scared of their neighbors.

Just like those who listened to too much radio became fearful of their potential nazi and communist collaborator neighbors.

Just like those who read the newspapers, accepting the propaganda as public opinion. Before the term "yellow journalism" had even been conceived.

In some ways, I wonder if the new technology is just a new way to upset culture, so that we are more easily fooled.

Thoughts?

magnora

Case in point, I'm being character assassinated right now: https://voat.co/v/ProtectVoat/2236846

youser

Been a while since I've been on Voat but this is the type of post I like seeing. Genuine thought that gets right to the core of an issue. I wish I could give this more than one upvoat.

magnora

Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm trying voat out too, but since they created a whole thread to character assassinate me and it got overwhelmingly upvoted, I don't think I'll be coming back. https://voat.co/v/ProtectVoat/2236846

This site has some serious problems, I've come to realize. They want a pure echo chamber.

magnora

Speak of the devil, I just got targeted for character assassination today, just as I was talking about: https://voat.co/v/ProtectVoat/2236846

Blue333

I agree - I think the medium (internet) is ruining society and civilized discourse. It's the nature of mankind, that when presented with anonymity, to be more extreme than in real life. So, naturally...we have extreme opinions, and extreme arguments because at the end of the day, there's no real consequence for your actions (or words).

I think the nature of this form of communication yields itself to incivility and conflict. Also, words are fleeting, opinions change...and yet online, things are said maybe in passing or spur of the moment that folks believe to be set in stone - in other words, we often forget people say garbage online or whatever comes to mind because that's how people are (in conversation). But in normal conversation, face to face with someone, you often have context - whether it's via knowing someone's background or just in knowing what they look like and getting a sense of who they are, so we can gleen more understanding from their words and whether or not they really mean what they say - but when it's just people typing into the void - well, who knows if it's what they really feel, or just feel at that minute, or second or whatever.

Warnos44

I agree with not down voting for difference of opinion. Most of my down votes are for those who add nothing to the discussion other than flinging insults. It gets really old. Even though I find grey cloud to be a pedo I don't down vote him. I don't like what he has to say but he is always offering his opinion in a well thought out manner. In real life I'm pretty sure my reaction wouldn't be so tame.

I absolutely agree with you that the disinformation campaign is real. But it's everywhere, except when you spend time with people, then we're just people spending time together amicably. Unless you bring up something they're passionate about and you're on the other side of the fence, then it becomes divisive. Friends and family and neighbors are no longer speaking because of all the information available, none of us have time to go through all of it (most wouldn't ever be inclined anyway), and we get stuck in an echo chamber or alone. Funny thing is, I don't know a soul who is out to hurt anyone with their views, we're all wanting what's best for everyone. But the view is that if you're at the opposite end you're intentionally harming people with your views. My husband has had PTSD for about a decade, a little more. Throughout this time, any time I ask him a question or if I were upset about some thing, he would feel like he was being attacked. I'm a very low key person, so don't get the idea in your head that I really was attacking him 😉. I would have to remind him, hey, I'm your wife, your my best friend and I love you, I'm only trying to help/have a conversation/whatever. He would be able to calm down and see again instead of the instant flight or flight response he automatically would have.

Maybe most of us are in that same PTSD state, and we shut down cognitively and react instead. God knows we stay on edge with stress in all facets of our lives. Is it any wonder we can't just get along or make progress?

magnora

Well said. I think the trauma of modern culture leads us to be defensive, because we always feel under attack. I think people need to get better at agreeing to disagree. I wish I knew how to better bring that about. Perhaps the way you reminded your husband to "zoom out" of his PTSD response can be extrapolated for a larger population?

redolas

First of all we should stop downvoating people that have a different opinion. Present your arguments, and accept that they still might not see things your way. Also, listen. You may learn something new today.

ArrowsFly

You gave me a weird idea. Why do we need a downvoat at all? If from what I read, it is a big part of the problem. Would be fun to play around with that idea in our heads. To be more on topic, in response to Warnos' well thought out post, as much as people today don't want to feel "attacked" they also strongly want to be right, and just... Look at this huge swing this last decade into social justice. The drive to promote what is "right & just" to you is a passion, although sometimes misplaced, it is inspiring to see in a way. Ps thank you magnora for starting this wholesome conversation. And thank everyone contributing.

redolas

That's not a bad idea. Without downvoat button, unpopular posts just don't get upvoated. It's going to eliminate the chance for people to team up and downvoat a post to oblivion. Then again, the same teams could just team up and upvote stupid posts just to distract attention.

I'm sure this is not new. Maybe there is a better format already out there.

magnora

Look at how I was targeted today for a character assassination: https://voat.co/v/ProtectVoat/2236846

YouveSeenTheButcher

How you say something is often much more important than what you say.

AnarchoCapsLock

This is especially common on websites like this because it's much easier to go through someone's post history and say something like "of course you'd have x opinion on this you once said y so you're obviously just a z" and you don't even have to argue. I see this far to often and it's a shitty tactic for debating but with the up/downvoat system it's a sure win if you know the hive mind well enough.

magnora

That's a great point. I had that exact thing happen to me today.

HarlandKornfeld14

There's a low level of trust, so people don't even bother effortposting that much anymore. Effortposts are often pointless because the other person isn't interested in having a conversation and it just ends up being a waste of time.

magnora

That makes a lot of sense to me. Why do you think the trust levels are so low? What do you think is the primary root cause of this?

Do you think it's something we just have to wait out, like a cultural adolescence? Or can we help guide it in a better direction and fix it quickly with the right method and attitude?

HarlandKornfeld14

There's always too many shills and trolls, that's probably not going away. We know that Voat is under concerted attack by shills, it's hard to discern who actually is on the payroll but the damage is done.

magnora

Check out this targeting that just happened to me: https://voat.co/v/ProtectVoat/2236846

magnora

Perhaps we can develop better tools for recognizing and dealing with these sorts of posters? In a sense they are always leaving a trail, so they can be caught with enough diligence.

HarlandKornfeld14

This seems like something Twitter and Facebook would already be working on. Of course I don't know what their R&D actually looks like. It seems like such 'tools' would only be used for nefarious purposes.