SaneGoatiSwear

no. no.

first, the u.s. was started by the elite, run by the elite, and is run by the elite. that has never changed. it was never a democracy, it was never an indirect democracy under a republic (as it officially is called), and it was never mob rule. the idea that "democracy is mob rule" is just not fully fleshed out. some forms of indirect and direct democracy can lead to mob rule, but to simply say all democracy is mob rule is plain wrong.

sec

In an oligarchy like the U.S., someone with enough money ought to be able to purchase voting records

FIFY.

You don't live in a democracy.

istalkezwhoa

Almost right, but people get to voat on legislative matters, hell, they can even print their own legislation and take it to the ballot. They do it very well in Switzerland, now ask yourself, how come switzerland is THE only country with direct democracy? Why are they among the top economies of the world?

Racer_the_observer

Transition to what?

404_SLEEP_NOT_FOUND

The MSM mocks any attempt to bring accountablity to ellections. When people wanted to recount the Gore vs Bush ellections, the media blow this whole "hanging chad" thing up to make it sound like some kind of unnecessary thing. What? Count the electoral votes to decide who will be the next president? BUT HANGING CHAAAADDDDSSS.

sneakybells

Too bad we don't have the same thing for senators.

taxation_is_slavery

And a democratic republic is mob rule by a bunch of degenerate scum that managed to get elected by the gullible populace. Saying it's better than real democracy is bullshit.

404_SLEEP_NOT_FOUND

But it feels good to believe that.

TheTrigger

Quick, where's the nearest burn ward?!

mrcanard

They don't want our numbers to conflict with their numbers.

Zodi

really, because bitcoin was a complete failure that ended with a few people running off with millions while everyone else's computers were ruined.

Zodi

We're a democratic republic. We are not a democracy. We never were.

Onlio

I really wish more people would know this

0x7a69

Your voting record could also be used against you by an employer or other party, do you really want that? The problem we have is not that we can't see our own votes, it is that there is no guarantee to it, because the collection of the vote itself is subverted by the parties or corporations working in the interest of a party. Even this doesn't matter as the underlying vote collection system between the states can also be compromised, and the discrepancies are downplayed and access to the evidence is denied or it is simply destroyed.

Trying to fix the corruption with more accounting won't really fix the problem. To fix it you probably would do best to force competition by removing the primary processes completely, and simply allow all candidates to go head to head. This would make it significantly more difficult for a candidate to win a majority, but also there would be more competition. The rich would it course choose their candidate as always but their funding would not be as effective if they had to split among candidates.

pitenius

Voting records were open very early but employers fired people for how they voted. A belief in voting is a mistake. A professor once pointed out that when ancient cultures needed to settle decisions among equals, they drew lots. We still do for the ultimate power of the state -- jury duty. If Joe Sixpack can sit on a jury, he should have an equal chance at sitting in congress. Oh, there might be retards and scoundrels. Do you think that's not the case now? The difference would be that no one particularly wanted the job. They might defer to people who knew what they were doing. And lobbyists would have a hell of a time figuring out who was good and bought -- and even those relationships would be unlikely to last long.

carlip

yeah we can't have that. only politicians should be allowed to sell their vote!

Billionaire

Actually you got close to the real problem, nixon getting rid of Congress's ability to vote in private is exactly why they can 'sell' their vote today.

sozcaps

Would be a wonder if the voting machines are the only machines on Earth the US government can't hack.

peacegnome

the records are anonymized (was your name on the ballot you filled out?).

Thatdrumdude

I think my dad explained to me how america was supposed to be the best.

America was supposed to be a Republic. Imagine there are 2 wolves and 1 sheep. Everyone gets a vote on what to eat. And every ones vote is equally considered. Wolves might want to eat the sheep, but since the sheep doesn't want to be eaten they find something else to eat. It's built on compromise. The proof that America was supposed to be a republic is the Constitution. The perfect document built by dozens of men with different opinions and philosophies getting together and agreeing on a base set of human rights that everyone deserves regardless of philosophy or opinion.

A democracy is majority rules. 2 wolves want to eat the sheep, the sheeps vote doesn't fucking matter, and the sheep dies a bloody horrible death.

But none of that matters, because America is far more an oligarchy at this point. Two of the biggest runners are the wife of an ex president, and the brother of and ex president who was the son of an ex president. On top of that money controls all bills and you're voice and vote means absolutely nothing in anyway. That's an oligarchy. That's why there is no transparency, because you have done nothing to affect or help the government and therefore they don't owe you a damn thing. Or at least that's how they view it. Now if you're giving millions of dollars to help influence law, then there is total transparency. Those companies know how their votes are going and know what their money is going to, on top of knowing what their competitors money is going to.

smoss

ah, how the tables have turned

dan_k

Voting machines are a total fraud.

NateThomas1979

If you can get legal access to your records, then that means that those with more dubious methodology can also get access. Know the saying "Don't put anything on the internet that you don't want the public to see"? The IRS is already on record of using people's political affiliation to attack people, why would you want to have another way that they can use pressure to affect your vote?

Zodi

Are you afraid of being audited?

NateThomas1979

This is what you focus on? The fact that I showed that a government agency was being used as a tool?

How about instead you focus on the idea that the two major parties could access your voting records as well?

Voting should be 100% anonymous, which means that after I vote, I shouldn't be able to access it anywhere to see anything more than that I DID vote and it was counted.

Racer_the_observer

Actually, that is not correct. We could have voting machines that issued a reciept with the vote and a number to check against. That way your vote remans anonymous but at the same time could be verfied. Ballots could easily be shuffled before being handed out to ensure your name is not tied to your vote. If you think your being reorded just tell them to cut the deck before you get your ballot.

Zodi

Voting should not be anonymmous in the sense that you can't access someone else's record. You should be able to access whether or not they voted in the election, and officials in charge should be able to see who you voted for. That's how you make sure every vote is accounted for. THEN, if those numbers don't match, you find out why.

NateThomas1979

I'll ask you a question to show you how silly this sounds to me.

Do you think such a system should be implemented in Iraq or Egypt?

The idea that the government could see who you voted for ignores the idea of any sort of retribution that could occur. Anonymous voting is what keeps thugs from intimidating people as would happen in early US history. Knowing who people vote for is a good way to scare people into not voting for a candidate.

Zodi

We aren't that corrupt. I wouldn't suggest voting records at all for places like russia. I wouldn't suggest NOT voting for the kim family for north korea since they would execute anyone who voted against them.

NateThomas1979

Maybe I'm cynical, but I'm not sure I agree with you. Our corruption is much more subtle, but I still think it vital to keeping elections open.

Didn't I just read last election about a group of black panthers intimidating voters?

Zodi

Didn't I just read last election about a group of black panthers intimidating voters?

So you're going to let people intimidate you that aren't even a part of the government? If they lay a single finger on you, you can have them arrested.

NateThomas1979

You're not understanding my point. I was showing examples in real life of intimidation to coerce people into voting a certain way. How much worse would it be if your voting record was exposed?

Just look at what happened to the guy at Mozilla who was exposed for giving a paltry amount to an anti-gay marriage group?

And you really think that people having their voting records accessible somehow would be a good thing?

The idea that they would be safe from hackers ignores how much desirability having the public's voting records would be.

BiscuitFever

America isn't a fucking democracy. It never has been. The founding fathers wanted a Republic, we currently have a plutocracy.

Mr-X

The Founders knew it was to be a plutocracy from the start. The Constitution was basically a mulligan to rig the system. All you need to do is read the notes from the SECRET debates of the Constitutional Convention, which by the way weren't shown to the public until half-a-century later, to see them complain about the "excesses of democracy" that were really screwing up the new country.

Cause you know, under the Articles taxes were raised by the States and sent off to the Federal Gov't. The local politicians weren't real big on enforcing new taxes, considering the lofty pretensions that had just been used to send the country to war with the Brits. Something Something taxation without something, anyways...Also the States were going around and passing laws relieving their citizens from debts contracted to before the war, and debts held by British citizens (who the American's supposedly beat). That was a big no-no. Jay's Treaty laid the foundation for the newly created SCOTUS to fix that little issue later on.

But we like to keep telling ourselves things were good, once upon a time in America.

WxGH0STxW

And here I thought we were run by a bunch of Fascists who believe they know what's best for everyone.

selpai

Our current model of government is a far throw from what the founders envisioned. Foremost i think, they would be horrified in regards to the proportionality of representation that we have in government today. 1 person cannot represent the interests of 1,000,000 people.

pilgrimboy14

I think if they expanded the House to 5,000 people, it might help.

istalkezwhoa

That would only make more of a mess and more people for politicians to blame for this and that. The only solution to the crisis we are in now and to avoid corporate rule is to implement a form of direct democracy.

selpai

I think so too, but it won't happen. No one gives up power like that without a bitter fight.

pilgrimboy14

On the flip side, I don't really want my voting records recorded.

Billionaire

This. When your vote is public your vote can be bought or you can be intimidated. Nixon got rid of the ability for congress to vote in private in the 70s, look how every vote is bought with lobbying or bought with intimidation.

necron30

What Congress used to have secret ballots too? Motherfuck Nixon so fucking hard, this is the first I ever heard of this and puts a lot of perspective on the last half century.

Zodi

Why not? You should take pride in who you vote for.

pilgrimboy14

Because I could then be targeted by the regime in power for voting against them.

Zodi

we haven't hit that point.